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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Patricia Louise Butler 
May 3, 1992 
Cassette 4, Side 1 
 
 
Antoinette Johnson  00:03 
Interviewee, Patricia Louise Butler, today's date is May 3, 1992, this is tape number four, 
Washington Women's Heritage Project, interviewed by Antoinette Johnson. The interview is at 
Miss Butler's home in Seattle, Washington.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  00:21 
I mean, he was there. And he stepped right in and took over his roles. He didn't even bitch about 
it. And, bless his heart, he told me, "Baby, you look so happy since you got a job, [?I know your 
feet hurt?]." That didn't mean he had dinner cooked. Those responsibilities were still there. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  00:42 
About, how did you guys manage your house-- How did you manage your household? Being a 
wife, you know, did you, were you mostly responsible for cooking and cleaning and stuff like 
that, even work, while working?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  01:04 
Just a minute, let me [inaudible]. My husband and I do not have a joint checking account, and we 
don't have that thing they call the budget. I don't have one of those. My budget is like this, my 
husband goes to work, he knows he is the administrator of this household. We talk about things 
we want to do, but he makes the final decision in the administration of this household. Now, 
when it comes to the kitchen, now that's a little bit more detailed, and we talk about that, but I 
usually make the final decision in the kitchen. That's my administrative area. We raise children 
together. We basically have the same philosophy in raising kids. And I know he don't like yard 
work, but I like pretty flowers. And when you take psych, you know these I statements, "This is 
what I like." So, if I like it, I need to get about it, because it goes with the philosophy of what we 
raise kids with. Now I do like a cut grass, but I figure that I can't do it all. He does have me have 
a gardener, so he pays the gardener. So you see, that's alright too. So if he's not here with us 
pulling these weeds today, I really can't complain too loudly, can I? I buy the food, the 
[inaudible] and charges are mine, and household bills he pays. So with that, maybe we should 
make a little cute little budget. But you know, when push comes to shove, you pull out those 
skills, and you go down that thing, and you balance it out and see, seems like most areas are 
covered. But I don't feel that I need to ride herd on the man.  
 
Page 2 of 17 
 
Antoinette Johnson  02:52 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  02:54 
If you ride too herd-- too tight a ship, with a two income family, how do you get a surprise 
diamond that's on my finger? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:02 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:04 
If I'm accounting for every single penny to make [inaudible], how can I buy him a new shirt or 
something special? If he's got to count every penny I make? You see, we both went to the same 
high school, they taught us both to add and subtract, and we have a mutual respect for one 
another. So, I mean, you gotta have a little [inaudible] there. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:23 
Well, you've been, you've been with him for so long-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:27 
We didn't have a budget in the beginning, except when I thought the money wasn't right. I told 
him one day, I said, you know, this budget's 100 dollars short. He said, "What have you been 
counting?" I said, "I've been counting up all the bills and things, and the money is disappearing 
somewhere. Can you tell, let's talk about that." We haven't had one of those talks in a long time.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:46 
So the first one was basically the last one? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:48 
Yeah, because, you know, he knows that I know that I ain't crazy, now let's just keep this money 
together. So basically, he knows how to buy, I know how to keep my charges down. And 
sometimes we do have to talk about bills and things, and we do, but it's not a real tight-- I could 
have more. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  04:11 
 Yeah.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  04:11 
But I'm not one to-- I think you need freedom within a marriage. If everything has gotta be based 
on material needs, I mean, today he's had breakfast with his family, I mean his friends, and I 
think a man needs that too. All work and no play is basically, what a lot of men saying that what 
women want is a Santa Claus. And he started being Santa Claus, you got a problem. He 
[inaudible] the other day too. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  04:50 
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What do you think, if you had to give some advice to most women, what do you think you would 
tell them as far as keeping-- What makes a marriage work, or a relationship work in general, 
because you guys have been together for what, 30-some odd years now? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:05 
Yeah. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:07 
And that's a long time. Even today, you don't find too many people that have been married that 
long.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:12 
Well, you gotta give a lot of respect and you gotta take your marriage vows very seriously. And 
then, in today's society, you gotta have a need for each other.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:21 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:22 
We haven't outgrown that need, so I don't know if the stuff marriages are built out of today are 
different. [Distracted] Get out of here. You know? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:28 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:28 
You think I should pull up this plant here? [?It's gonna bloom?]. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:31 
It's pretty.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:31 
The one with the pink blossoms? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:33 
I'd leave it.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:33 
That one over there? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:34 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:34 
I think I will.  
 
Page 4 of 17 
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:52 
What do you think about the philosophy, if it works, don't change it? I mean-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:05 
I agree with it, and you know, they're doing that with cars. If it's running, don't bring it in. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:09 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:11 
You know, the thing is fully operational, you know, you change the oil and things like that. You 
do things and the maintenance. I think a lot of it, in terms of a marriage is that women want to be 
the boss at home and work and everywhere else, some men want to be too, but. A lot of people 
say I'm bossy, but I have to look after me. I just don't know really what kind of advice you can 
give, except that you have to be individuals and together. He has to have life, you have to have 
life, but you have to have blending of that life together. And when you find that you have too 
many hours alone, too much time alone, you need to balance that attitude. And sometimes that 
means give up your friends for a while. And it's not giving them up, it's just that, when men are 
young, they say that they always want to have [?the other men over?], and that's a period like 
adolescence. But you gotta adjust, and you constantly have to change, because change is what's 
constant. It's the only thing in life you can depend on, is change.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  07:17 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  07:18 
Only thing that's possible, when things stop changing, how do you watch out?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  07:27 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  07:29 
You got a problem. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  07:32 
Yep. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  07:32 
A serious problem. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  07:35 
Has, has Jerome always worked?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  07:38 
Always worked. If he loses his job, we have another problem, don't we? 
 
Page 5 of 17 
 
Antoinette Johnson  07:48 
Do you think it would, would put, it would be harder for him than it was for you to lose his job? 
Being that he's always worked?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:00 
It would be hard, because he's already gone through that fight where they try to lay you off when 
you get close to retirement and that was hard. We've been through that. And it took a lot of 
[inaudible], [?but he stayed on?]. It's hard. It's bad [inaudible] lose his job. And he's watched his 
other peers at the post office go through that. [Inaudible], it's like being fired and not knowing 
what they're saying. [?Have to do this?] because it's, "No, this couldn't be happening to me," but 
it is happening to you. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  08:30 
Did he still, does he still work for post office?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:34 
Oh, yeah, he [inaudible]. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  08:35 
Oh, he retired from post office? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:37 
No, he made it through the window. They gotta, they gotta get rid of you before you're 55. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  08:43 
Oh, okay.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:44 
He's past 55, we made it through the window.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  08:47 
So he don't, he don't-- He doesn't worry no more. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:58 
Well, he can worry. I guess you could get fired, but I don't know how they would do that. 
[Inaudible] but I think he would miss work. I think he's tired of work, he wants to do something 
different, and he's looking at going into business for himself. [?What he'll?] go into business to 
do, I don't know, but that's okay. You know, he's entitled to normal ambition. And because we've 
been afforded a good life, you can look forward to that without regretting.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  09:42 
Yeah, did you ever think you would be with him for so long? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  09:47 
Yeah!  
 
Page 6 of 17 
 
Antoinette Johnson  09:47 
Always?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  09:48 
Yeah, isn't that why folks get married?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  09:53 
[Laughs] I don't know.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  09:53 
To be together always. When you get the boyfriend you like, do you want to give him up? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  09:59 
No. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  09:59 
Oh, and there sure has been a lot knocking on the door.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  10:02 
Do women go through this, the same temptation as men do?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  10:13 
Yeah. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  10:14 
Like the midlife crisis and all that other stuff where you want to, you know, leave home or, you 
know, fly away with this? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  10:24 
No, I didn't have that problem, but I [?know people who do?]. I've had students, I had a student 
that [?is now at the?] University in Washington that was telling me that she was gonna divorce 
her husband. I said, "You are?" I said, "Why?" And she said, "Well, he just doesn't give me any 
attention, and I need more attention and this," and some other foolishness she was telling me. I 
said, "You mean you found someone who gives you a lot of attention?" I said, "What does he 
do?" She says, "Well, right now, he's just a street person. I met him when I was volunteering," I 
said, "And how were you able to volunteer?" "Well, I didn't have anything to do or I wanted to 
become interested in this, that, and the other." I said, "So that was by the grace of who? That 
husband that don't give you attention, out there working to make a living for that new house you 
tell me you have?" She said, "Well, I never looked at it like that." I said, "Well, when you go 
home, take another look at that man that's tired sitting in a chair, that you don't have dinner ready 
for. And I know you feel this is an equal society, but you're here going to school. Who's paying 
your tuition?" "My husband." "What does your husband do?" "He's an engineer." I said, "That's 
why he's sending you back to school, because your brains need help. You need some growing up 
to do, honey, you think you're going to play around?" I said, "Don't you think not having an 
income is gonna get dull after a while. What is that street man gonna do for you? You have a 
good conversation, I guess so, if I hadn't worked all day, I'd have one too." And I guess you 
Page 7 of 17 
 
something to talk about because your husband ain't got time to tell you about all the world. Is 
your husband old enough to have traveled the whole world?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:19 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:20 
And we talked, and she kept [?coming to counseling?]. Now I know she was at the academic, but 
she also needed help with that social part of her life, right there. And she's at the University of 
Washington, well, maybe graduated now, but I saw her one day at the HUB, and she told me, 
"Mrs. Butler, do you remember me?" I said, "No, dear, but who are you?" And she says, "I'm the 
one you told, let that man in the street on with a conversation, but don't leave your husband for it 
until the man on the street get a job to support you." She said, "I'm still with my husband. I like 
him better now," I said, "I guess so." 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:30 
See him in a new light. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:30 
I mean, this game we play. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:30 
So you take those for better or for worse vows very seriously?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:30 
I do, and when you think about leaving them, I ask them, "Does your husband beat you?" They 
say, "No." Oh, good, [inaudible]. So I don't know, people get married for different reasons. And I 
was looking at, I'm taking a class now, you know what's so nice about this class is, I [inaudible]. 
I'm studying the Asians and social politics. And people were saying when the Asians came to 
America that they weren't used to looking for a life out of love, that these marriages had been 
arranged family to family and so that it wasn't about, like we get married in the United States. So 
that was new and different to them. And then there was discrimination in there, because they 
didn't let women come to the United States. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:30 
Asian women? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:30 
Uh-huh. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:30 
Yeah, we seen a film about that.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:30 
How about that? 
 
Page 8 of 17 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:30 
When did you, when did you start working at the UW? In 1985? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:30 
'85.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:30 
And did that open up-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:30 
Oh, no, 1987. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:30 
Did you start getting-- Well, I'm trying to figure out what point you really start becoming 
involved in people, because you seem like you were a people person for the most part.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:30 
More than a what? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:30 
For the most part, you seem like a people person. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:30 
Uh-huh. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:48 
Trying to hang in there, and get involved, and-- especially with the students. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:10 
I do, but you know, I won't be one of those student advisors. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  08:10 
Really why?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:10 
I don't think my ideas are the kind that the youth itself would advocate. And I think sometimes 
black students get involved in some issues that are not their issues, and it would be hard for me 
to be an advisor and want you to do all these things for an organization before you get your job 
done in the classroom.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  10:31 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  10:58 
Basically, a lot of us have a problem with that. 
 
Page 9 of 17 
 
Antoinette Johnson  13:15 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  13:29 
If you're busy with the organization, we can't get our work done. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  15:55 
Do you enjoy working, doing the work that you do today? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:48 
Wait a minute, give me an occupation of what I'm doing right now.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:48 
Oh, no, not this right here, occupation [they laugh]. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:48 
I love my job. [Inaudible] [?take care of somebody else?].  
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:48 
Quite a few well, actually, well-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:48 
Yeah, I have [?done quite a few?]. And let me tell you how important your occupation is to your 
children. I didn't even think about it. You know, when I got out [inaudible]. My daughter said to 
me, when I got the job at the Y-- It was a little broke down, dirty office that needed to be washed 
down and cleaned up. And they did, they cleaned it up the best they could. And she said, "Oh, 
Mommy, I'm so glad to see you with an office again."  
 
Antoinette Johnson  08:24 
Really? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:17 
Evidently, I came to that window just about the time of impression. And she was impressed with 
my job with a desk [inaudible], I had a very nice office, like I do now. And that's what she 
wanted her mom to have. And when I asked Woody Audrey, he used to be the director of the 
Urban League when I went to college, when he went back to the U, he said that was a big thing 
with his kids, saying, "We're so glad," when daddy got a job again. And he was the director of 
the program. So children have expectations of their parents. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:22 
That's right, they do. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:40 
And you don't, you know, when you're trying to just survive, you don't realize that this is what 
they want. They want their parents, black children want their parents to be as much of the 
mainstream of society as anybody else's [?child?]. They want [inaudible]. You know, and I heard 
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her, very loud and very clear. So that moment, the next job I was going to look for permanency, 
had to have some of the ingredients for me and for her ego so that she could keep on going. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  17:55 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  17:55 
You know? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  17:56 
What do you, when you, when you look back on, on the jobs that you have done-- When you 
look back on the job that you have done, what, which one seems, which ones gave you the most 
satisfaction? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  18:47 
Odessa Brown, Children's-- Well, all the jobs I've had. Just the one where I was making beds for 
a minute, and the people was wetting those beds. But, though, I mean, it was a non-health scene, 
it was just a maid for a day, I guess, and that didn't work. That's the only job I personally ever 
quit to go look for another one. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  19:28 
But you, you pretty much liked most of the jobs you've had? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  19:32 
Yeah, I have. And you know what? I'm a lucky young lady, because I saw some kind of a study, 
and it wasn't until 1960 that blacks had jobs that they liked, ever. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  19:46 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  19:46 
They took jobs out of necessity. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  19:47 
Yeah. Did you ever have any, know of any cases of like sexual harassment in the workplace, out 
of the many jobs you had?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  20:07 
To me or to others? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  20:09 
To others, to yourself? Or, you know, like men getting, men getting the higher positions because 
they were men?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  20:15 
Was not a worry [?in terms of positions?]. 
Page 11 of 17 
 
 
Antoinette Johnson  20:19 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  20:20 
I had not reached that level of education where that was a concern. My biggest concern was that 
discrimination, in terms of color, wasn't executed against me. You know, I think we just hadn't 
reached, I haven't reached that stage. I would say maybe at the U, that may happen more, but I 
haven't become a part of that job, looking for that job. The job that I have [inaudible].  
 
Antoinette Johnson  20:52 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  20:53 
The responsibility I see in that job is not one that most men dealing with. They're looking for 
money and [?jet planes?], they're looking for status quo of employment, and I'm looking to help 
someone. Do you know what I mean? I understand that it happens, and I understand, [inaudible] 
be at the U, well there's a male chauvinistic society, a culture. That's the culture of the U, now 
that is someone else's fight at this time, that is not my struggle. My struggle was to get there. My 
next struggle is to find those students, to find me, to be visible to help them, to be honest enough 
that they can trust what I say is the stuff they need to go where they've got to go for the next 
generation. So my war with management is, other than give me a decent day's pay for the job I've 
done-- And they can't even begin to pay me enough for the job I do, not that I am real good, but 
that I am dedicated, and that kind of dedication ain't something you buy every day.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  22:13 
Yeah, you can tell that too. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  17:02 
You know, you just don't, I hear them when they ask the academic questions, but I still have an 
ear open and an eye open for, what is the problem? Because some days they talk about one thing, 
but something else is hurting them more deep.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  22:21 
Yeah, your students [?coming in?]? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  22:26 
Yeah, you know, sometimes you see them, and one of the things that I had never seen until I 
went to the U is people look and look away. So I have a job to do, just walking across campus, to 
be sure to speak to everybody that look like me and those that don't even look like me, and I'd be 
tired. I don't like to go up on upper campus, because I'd be worn out just saying hello to Susie 
and John and Henry. And you know, that's hard work, but they need to know that somebody 
cares, that they're somebody special. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  22:58 
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Yeah, yep, because I remember when I first got up, came up there, I was about, I was ready to 
leave.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:04 
Where was you going?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:05 
I was trying to get enrolled through EOP.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:08 
What did I do for you?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:09 
Raul was-- And see, that's it, you don't even remember half the stuff you do [they laugh].  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:09 
No, I don't. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:09 
You don't even, and it was just us. You were three hours orientating me to that campus and 
getting enrolled in class. Raul was new, and I sat in his office for five hours, and we did not get a 
thing accomplished. As a matter of fact, when I left, I was on my way home and I was standing 
there-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:24 
In Raul's office? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:24 
Yeah. And I came out to the front desk, and I was standing there, and I looked, I looked at my 
sister and I said, [?Leah?], let's go, because she had her little boy with her.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:35 
Oh, it wasn't-- That wasn't Raul, that was Ricardo.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:44 
That's it. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:45 
Ricardo was new, I remember.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:47 
He was new.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:47 
And you were staring at this, and I said, "Do you know how to work this?"  
 
Page 13 of 17 
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:51 
And I just looked like, Lord, it's time for me to go home.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:53 
And you said something like, "Yeah, he put me here to look for classes." I said, "Well, do you 
have the classes you can take?" You said, "Well, I have this." I said, "Well, come on in here, 
honey." The worse, the more questions I asked you, the worse it got. I mean, it got deep. I said, 
this is ridiculous. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  24:15 
We were there for three hours, but I tell you, after I left, I have not had any trouble. After I left, I 
was thoroughly oriented to that campus and how to get my classes, what classes I needed, I didn't 
have any more trouble. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  24:28 
[Inaudible] I gave you the book, the blue sheet. I said, "If it ain't on the blue sheet, question it." 
 
Antoinette Johnson  24:33 
Yep. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  24:34 
"Don't take it."  
 
Antoinette Johnson  24:35 
No more trouble.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  24:36 
I mean, they'll be taking a bunch of electives and coming in here, "Well, I didn't know." Don't 
tell me that. Here's the sheet, and if you use all of this, you can't, [inaudible]-- Because the whole 
thing in counseling is to enable the student to help themselves, not to be totally dependent on it, 
you know. And I was having a nervous breakdown doing that that day, you just don't know, I 
was upset. Oh shit, boy is new, but shit. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  25:03 
[Inaudible] crack up, we couldn't believe it. I felt so much better after I left that day, though. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  25:09 
Yeah, because she had the baby. I don't know what we did with the baby.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  25:13 
He just, he was good. He's, his mama was there, so, he was pretty quiet. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  25:16 
Yeah, now I remember it was you and her, and I went out the room and back in the room and 
back out. I can't remember what else I was doing at the same time, but we got you in those 
classes, I made sure you know how to use that telephone.  
Page 14 of 17 
 
 
Antoinette Johnson  25:17 
Yep.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  25:17 
I think the poor boy got frustrated trying to counsel you. He didn't know what to do--  
 
Antoinette Johnson  25:32 
I was frustrated, he knew I was frustrated, he got frustrated, and he didn't know how to explain 
it-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  25:41 
And his next customer must have been there. And he says, "I gotta let you go." 
 
Antoinette Johnson  25:46 
I was there for hours. I was ready to leave with him. I'm like, oh, my goodness. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  25:51 
Is this what the U is going to be like? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  25:54 
I was on my way out the door. Bless his heart. I know he's better now because he's gotten used to 
the system, but it was, that was a hell day for me.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:01 
But see the idea, one day he came in and told me, "I was on drop-ins with you, and you know 
that you would spend an hour with the student? We're only supposed to give them 15 minutes on 
drop-ins." I looked at him, I said, "Well, you know, you got to do what you got to do. And 
sometimes they come in here, when I'm on drop-in, and they got major--" "Well, you can just 
have them--" Unh-uh, it ain't about another appointment. They're here on a drop-in because 
they've either been waiting too long or they didn't get it done, you know? So once you get them 
out of the crisis situation, you can deal with an appointment. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:28 
Yeah, yeah.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:32 
And then they can even deal better, like this, on a drop-in. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:38 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:38 
Because they then know what the, what the question is, see before they just go around and 
around and they don't know what the question is they need to ask.  
 
Page 15 of 17 
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:47 
This comes natural to you, don't it?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:48 
Yeah. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:49 
Helping students like that?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:50 
Yeah. Because, I mean, I just go on because, you know, whatever you're talking to me about not 
necessarily is always a problem. You know, this is what you get entry to this office to come in 
and talk about, and that's the difference between central advising and OMA counseling. 
Counseling is a holistic approach. Advising is just advise them. Now, if you think they hand with 
you guys and walk you across campus to the financial aid office, you're correct, because I do 
take people by hand and bodies down to the financial aid office, tell them to sit over there, I'll go 
back here and see what's cooking. And when I find out what's cooking, then I can come back and 
tell you what papers to get, and you can get them and then they can stop worrying me with the 
financial problem, we can get on with the academics.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:39 
Yeah, yeah. Do you think that approach is much more effective than just, you know, hey, you go 
here and go there and call me later if it works out?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:47 
For some people. Now, there's some people you never have to walk anywhere, you can just 
basically tell them. But for Afro Americans, they, they keep coming back, and they can't seem to 
get it. Well, go and walk them through the process, because they aren't hearing you, something 
else is going on. Don't know what it is, but something else going on. They don't want to talk 
about it, don't want to talk about it, ain't your business, you know. And I can understand, 
because, I know what it was that Victor did, and he came home, and we said, "Well, Victor, why 
weren't you telling us this?" "Well, you're supposed to tell--" Stop that shit. What is it? I mean, 
and the counselor's telling them, "Well, you know," unh-uh, she's not dealing with it, she's 
dealing with a bunch of rules and regulations, and everything isn't [inaudible]. But it's, it's okay. 
Most kids, you know, once you get their confidence and trust, are willing to go there and tell you 
what's bothering them. I mean, it's like the girl who said she wanted to graduate and go on for her 
master's. I said, "Well, what else?" Well, what's was bothering her was she was pregnant by this 
man a second time.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:47 
Oh, Lord. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:47 
[Inaudible] you're gonna have to put some moves on him, get some serious money. But you 
know what, I said "And besides, you're gonna have to think about, do you want to keep him?" I 
Page 16 of 17 
 
said, "How much education does he have?" He didn't have his high school diploma. She's talking 
about going to get a master's?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:47 
Do you think that will create problems within the relationship?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:47 
Oh, hell, yes. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:47 
Whoa.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:47 
You know, there's something to those old folks that said to you, "Don't marry out of your status."  
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:47 
Exactly.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:47 
You can't have it, all of it, out of your status. This boy ain't got a job, he's just now trying to 
finish his high school GED, and she stimulated him to do that. That's good, but if you got 
ambitions and desires of a master's, and you're on baby number two, and the state is supporting 
them? Wait, what are we doing?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:47 
Yeah, what is he doing?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  28:18 
What are you doing? He ain't doing nothing, it's you. It's her. I mean, what'd she come to get her 
bachelor's for? What is she telling herself? She can do better than that. You know, that's all, she's 
almost committing suicide. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  30:27 
Yeah, that, wouldn't that seem to create problems within that relationship, too? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  30:25 
Relationship should be severed at some point.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  30:28 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  30:29 
And she's sitting between abortion or have this baby. That's a good question to ask in a day [?of 
pro choice?]. I mean, does that tell you what's happening in [inaudible], having this baby. [?And 
she doesn't need to?], she needs love, if that's what love is about. On the physical side. I said, 
Page 17 of 17 
 
"Do we need to get into birth control?" I mean, [inaudible] based on all that's going on in this 
woman's head?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:19 
Right. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  29:17 
And she just had a quick question. Just a quick question. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:04 
How long did you have to talk to her?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  28:54 
She was in there through the tears and gotten dried up. And I told her, honey, graduate. Do what 
you need to do to graduate and think about the master's much further down the road. 